ShortScale Forum Index www.shortscale.org
Head 'n Neck Above
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
UploaderUploader   ShortScale WikiBuilder

Fender Short Scale Necks - Accurate Measurements?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ShortScale Forum Index -> Guitar Projects and Tech/Set-up
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Fender Short Scale Necks - Accurate Measurements? Reply with quote

Got one or several and care to share?

Why? I 'd like to draw up a PDF of the different necks Fender produced / produces - especially including the various short scales because of the lack of reliable info on them on the internet.

Benefit: people looking for a neck on e-bay, etc. would be better informed if armed with accurate measurements / details.

I've been researching short scales on and off for quite a while now online and have read numerous accounts of people buying a body only to find out later that they can't fit the neck they want to it - or they buy the wrong neck for the body they have. Sound familiar?

A reference of accurate measurements might cut down on the confusion out there.

yes - it's my 1st post here, but what better place to look for info on short scale necks, eh?

Model and/or neck date?


Q1 - heel width at widest point?
modern tele, strat, jazzmaster, jaguar etc are 2.19" - a hair (0.005) over 2 & 3/16
early duo sonics and musicmasters may be slightly more narrow - early mustangs and broncos also.

Q2 - nut to but length - from the inside of the nut to the center of the neck butt. (to nearest 64th)

Q3 - actual scale length - from the inside of the nut to the center of 12th fret (as accurate as possible)
a so called 22.5 may or may not be exactly 11.25" from nut to 12th, just as a 24 may not be exactly 12.

Q4 - nut width

and for extra credit!

Q5 - 12th dots - center to center or treble side to treble side - clay or pearloid?

Q6 - inside nut to center of low e tuner
it can differ per model - teles and strats are currently 1.650" - a 60s tele was 1.685" - a jaguar = 1.625

From what I can gather... (subject to correction):

1950s & 60s
21 fret - 22.5" original Musicmaster and Duo Sonic necks (despite wikipedia saying they're 20 frets)
21 fret - 22.5" Mustang, Musicmaster II and Duo Sonic II necks (they may differ slightly)
22 fret - 24" scale Mustang & Bronco - Musicmaster II & Duo Sonic II necks
22 fret - 24" scale Jaguar necks

Later:

1993 - 1997 - Fender Duo Sonic reissue (made in Mexico)
20 fret - 22.7" scale

1998 - 1999 - Squire Affinity Duo Sonic
20 fret - 22.7" scale

2009 - 2011 - Squire Classic Vibe Duo Sonic
21 fret - 24" scale (so called "conversion")

1996 - 1998 - Squire Vista Series Jagmaster (Japan)
22 fret - 24" scale
truss adj. at butt of neck at first - then headstock adj.

2000 - 2005 - Squire Jagmaster (China)
21 fret - longer 25.5" scale

2005 - 2007 -Squire Jagmaster II (China)
22 fret - 24" scale

2007 - on - Squire Jagmaster II (China)
21 fret - 24" scale (so called "conversion")

1995 - 2001 - Jagstang (Japan)
2003 - 2005 - Jagstang (Japan)
22 frets - 24" scale

am I missing any?

oh - squire mini - the so called 22.75" scale necks

got any of these to measure?

any accurate measurement helps the cause... even if just to confirm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robert(original)
.
.


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 7167
Location: somewhere in the midwest

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive got a 77 or 78 musicmaster neck i can measure tomorrow, as well as a j.s. neck.
im afraid i didn't write down any of the measurements for my 59 musicmaster neck(22.5 scale)
_________________
Dwarfcraft Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robert(original) wrote:


that's the spirit! Smile

trivia (for some) and speculation:

for those of you who didn't know, gang saws were used to cut frets in production environments (perhaps cnc now)



a couple dozen blades separated by custom milled spacers.

Leo Fender started with the 25.5" scale... then came out with the 34" bass.

instead of getting a whole new set of spacers milled, he extended the 25.5" scale out and landed on 34.038 (confirmed)

5 new spacers vs a whole new set... Leo was notoriously frugal / efficient.

1st fret of 25.5 scale is 24.069
2nd fret is 22.718

so did Leo splurge for a whole new set of spacers for the 56 Musicmaster and DuoSonic?
... and then the Jaguar?

Maybe someone here can shed some light.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robert(original)
.
.


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 7167
Location: somewhere in the midwest

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you sir are a wealth of knowledge, i am interested in seeing what you have to offer the forum/ss.org group.
i have a set of digital calipers, and somewhere i did some feeler gauge stuff on necks......
your headed in the right direction
_________________
Dwarfcraft Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robert(original) wrote:
i am interested in seeing what you have to offer the forum/ss.org group.
i have a set of digital calipers, and somewhere i did some feeler gauge stuff on necks......
your headed in the right direction

Well, there's a layer in Cad I've labelled "sharknado"... a thicker (1.75"), smaller short scale body that I'd like to be able to set up for 22.5 and 24 - perhaps even an easy swap to 24.75 also. Big enough pickguard so it's essentially a mule for any pickup combination.

I doubt that many would want to, but I can adapt a curved single action truss rod to the neck drawings if someone would like to set up yet another jig for a curved route.

going the other way is pretty much self evident, it's the 24 and 22.5 that I'm uncertain about - including the nut to butt lengths, etc.

25.5 = tele - strat - jazzmaster, etc.

27 (27.016) - SubSonic - a strat looking longer scale.

28.5 - sometimes called 28.625 (28.623) baritone Jag

30 (30.325) - bass vi - mustang bass (short scale for basses) - etc.

32 (32.128) - mid scale bass - mostly japanese until the new upside down pawn shop jag bass?

34 - full scale bass, as above.

if anyone has a 28.5, 30 or 32" scale and wants to join the fun... by all means, jump right in.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robert(original)
.
.


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 7167
Location: somewhere in the midwest

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a guy in indianapolis, his name is kevin but he works under the buisiness of uncle al's, dude is a gent. he has done great work and may have stuff on file, i know he gave me schematics a few years back just for shits and gigglesl
_________________
Dwarfcraft Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Altar
.
.


Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I chose very comparable two necks to try. One was a B width August '65 Jag neck(red), the other a B width October of '65 Mustang neck(blue).

Q1:

2 1/8"

2 3/16"

Q2:

17 11/16"

17 11/16"

Q3:

11 31/32"

12"

Q4:

1 5/8"

1 5/8"

Q5:

1" - Pearl

7/8" - Pearl

Q5:

1 9/16"

1 11/16

So, interesting. '65 was a crazy as hell year at Fender, so lots of variation.

Feel free to use these specs for crafting fakes and forgeries! Wink
_________________
WTT: My Soul for your Jag
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cur
.
.


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 7291

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some how this should be ported/duplicated to the project forum : template sticky.

Good stuff!
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altar wrote:
So, interesting. '65 was a crazy as hell year at Fender, so lots of variation.

Feel free to use these specs for crafting fakes and forgeries! Wink


Thanks! I'm pretty sure the forgers are busy working feverishly to perfect their 59 burst replication skills. heh

does the mustang have a slab fret board instead of the thin curved veneer?

from this site - http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fender2.html#duoson

the pic:

"The 24" scale Duo-Sonic II, Musicmaster II, and Mustang of the September 1965 to October 1966 period are sometimes found with a slab rosewood fingerboard, usually of Indian rosewood (click here for a picture of this). Some Fender experts speculate that the slab board necks were leftovers from 1962 Jaguars. This is not correct as the dot spacing, peghead shape, and type of rosewood on a 1962 jaguar neck is different than these 9/65 to 10/66 necks. Mostly likely, since Fender was backordered on these guitars, slab boards were used because the manufacturing process was quicker for this style of fingerboard (a veneer fingerboard requires another manufacturing step)."

the extra step being the radius on the bottom of the board - the wood wasn't bent around radiused maple.

a couple of measurements were not what I was expecting... interesting, indeed.

I would have expected the jag to be 2-3/16ths at the butt and the mustang to be 2-1/8th.

and the scale length... maybe they did set up a whole new set of spacers for the saw. Wood shrinkage on a nearly 50 year old neck could account for some of it, but shrinkage along the grain is much less that across grain.

ah well, back to the drawing board.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Altar
.
.


Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sure does, the mustang is slab.
_________________
WTT: My Soul for your Jag
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave
TOTALLY MODD


Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 10272
Location: UK - Southampton

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cur wrote:
Some how this should be ported/duplicated to the project forum : template sticky.

Good stuff!


DONE
_________________
iCEByTes wrote:
5 Most Jizz face maker Solo´s , classic Rock music i ever listened.


iCEByTes wrote:
Blunt a joint , Take the Touch , Listen this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Altar
.
.


Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, more on the crazy CBS takeover shit - Necks often got mixed up. The '65 jag neck has a factory applied Duo Sonic logo, but it came off of a '65 jag. I've seen a '66(?) B&B neck with a slab fingerboard, and there is a massacred '66 Musicmaster neck with what look to be factory block inlays on ebay right now.
_________________
WTT: My Soul for your Jag
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Addam
.
.


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 971
Location: In the Gateau

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a few shortscale necks to hand.

Allparts JGRO
Q1; 2 6/32"
Q2; 17 24/32"
Q3; 24"
Q4; 1 5/8"
Q5; 1 1/16"

Squier Mini-Strat
Q1; 2 6/32"
Q2; 15 29/32"
Q3; 22 3/4"
Q4; 1 9/16"
Q5; 1 1/8"

'70s Bronco
Q1; 2 1/8"
Q2; 17 3/4"
Q3; 24"
Q4; 1 19/32"
Q5; 7/8"

Jagmaster 24" conversion (21 fret)
Q1; 2 1/8"
Q2; 17 3/16"
Q3; 24"
Q4; 1 5/8"
Q5; 1 1/4"


I would have found measuring in MMs a whole lot easier; all them fractions and inches frazzle my little brain.


*Edit for clarity and addition of Jagmaster measurements*


Last edited by Addam on Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AddamInsane wrote:

I would have found measuring in MMs a whole lot easier; all them fractions and inches frazzle my little brain.


hey... my computer speaks metric. You could have done it that way.

as it is, I have to look to a table to convert to decimal anyway. I mean who has the decimal equivalent of 29/32nds memorized?

Thanks for the measurements. closer and closer...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altar wrote:
Ah, more on the crazy CBS takeover shit - Necks often got mixed up. The '65 jag neck has a factory applied Duo Sonic logo, but it came off of a '65 jag. I've seen a '66(?) B&B neck with a slab fingerboard, and there is a massacred '66 Musicmaster neck with what look to be factory block inlays on ebay right now.


thanks for reminding me.. ebay would be a good source for pics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

necks penciled before 1962 - then stamped using codes:

1 Jaguar 1962-1965
15 Jaguar 1966-1972

8 Musicmaster II, Mustang, Duo-Sonic II 1964-1965 22 fret 24" scale model
16 Musicmaster II, Mustang, Duo sonic II, and Bronco 22 fret 24" scale 1966 on.

3/4 Musicmaster and Duo Sonic 21 fret small headstock first version 1962-early 1964
9 Musicmaster II, Mustang, Duo-Sonic II 1964-1966 21 fret 22 3/4" scale Model also found on '69 Swinger "Arrow/Musiclander"

the 69 swinger necks were marked 66, so they probably stopped making the 22.5 scale necks then.



is it just me ... or does the last fret to the butt end look different on these two?

the corner radius on the older necks may have been 3/16ths instead of 1/4 like strats, jags and most everything else.

in looking around ebay, there's currently a mustang neck with an "aftermarket" jaguar logo on it. Interesting.

also - best buy is now a dumping ground? $49 mini strats and duo sonics for $149



ah - I can still edit. pic fixed - I had the wrong butt end for the second fretboard - corrected to right one to show another difference between the original 22.5 and the later mustang and II necks (besides the enlarged headstock)


Last edited by Casual_Reader on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Altar
.
.


Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Austin, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I can recall...

3/4:22.5" Scale necks
1:Jaguar
2:Stratocaster until 1965
3:Telecaster
4:Jazzmaster
5:Precision Bass
6:Bass VI
7:Jazz Bass
8:Mustang and Musicmaster II
9:Duosonic and Musicmaster
12:Fender XII
13:Jazzmaster and Stratocaster 1965+
15:Jaguar after 1965
16:Mustang and Bronco
17:Mustang Bass

Also some info on the jag, work in progress.

Jaguar(1962-1975):
$379.50 New.

1962

January 1962:
Necks:
- Clay dots.
- Slab board.
- Handwritten dates on the necks.


April 1962
- Necks stamped.


July 1962
- Switch to veneer boards until discontinuation.

Feel free to add. I haven't had time to really focus on it recently, but I really want to eventually get these exact details put together for every Fender model, from the beginning up to '80 or so.
_________________
WTT: My Soul for your Jag
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

those "after 65" bits grate on my nerves a little.

One can just imagine cloth eared engineers telling CBS management that Leo, the former radio repairman, didn't know anything about tube amps... "These blackface circuits need updated!" Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Casual_Reader on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the other hand... block inlays.

(was a double post)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Casual_Reader
.
.


Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok... so much for the idea that Leo used the the same spacers on the early 22.5" necks.

Spellcaster over at another forum posted this pic a while back.


64 or later musicmaster in rosewood - 97 duo sonic 22.7 scale in maple.

so they used a true 22.5" scale early on, then switched to the second fret of a 25.5" scale with the made in mexico Duo

this actually surprised me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ShortScale Forum Index -> Guitar Projects and Tech/Set-up All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Anti Bot Question MOD - phpBB MOD against Spam Bots
Blocked registrations / posts: 631047 / 0

Guitars at Musician's Friend

Help support this site by clicking the above link!