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12 string Tele build
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dezb1
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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Location: glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:47 pm    Post subject: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

Bought this kit two years ago and forgot about it, found it lurking in a box in my garage yesterday. The bridge is shite so I have a cunning plan for a replacement. thought I'd build it and see how well it's going to work before I put the time into finishing the body and neck... See how it plays and if it looks like it could be good get to work on it...



I'll up date as I get the time to do a bit...
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dezb1
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Planing to do the bridge like they do at Nash guitars...


Link
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benecol
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I by instinct hate a twelve string, Thee Oh Sees have won me round a little, and I love a goo tele build. Best of luck, keep us posted, do yourself a favour and buy an electrosocket rather than the standard tele jack (which is hell to fit).
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dezb1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was the last QOTSA album (and my Echo and the bunnymen fixation) that convinced me I needed one.

Most of the electronics will be getting ditched as they are pretty low quality.
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George
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

dezb1 wrote:
The bridge is shite so I have a cunning plan for a replacement.


gonna have to stop you there!!!! i hope you don't sleepwalk into getting a trapeze tailpiece (which would be great) and a TOM, or any monstrosity like the one in the video that doesn't have individual string intonation. notice how he didn't play past the 3rd fret? yeah...

can't wait to see the results though. love 12 strings.
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dezb1
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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Location: glasgow

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

George wrote:
dezb1 wrote:
The bridge is shite so I have a cunning plan for a replacement.


gonna have to stop you there!!!! i hope you don't sleepwalk into getting a trapeze tailpiece (which would be great) and a TOM, or any monstrosity like the one in the video that doesn't have individual string intonation. notice how he didn't play past the 3rd fret? yeah...

can't wait to see the results though. love 12 strings.


Going to do the one one the video, had a chat with a bloke on ttippi (or whatever it's called Tele forum) says he has a Nash and he has to get above the 12th fret before he gets any problems also the bloke from Low has one and makes some nice noises... I mean 12 string acoustics don't have individual adjustments and they do Awreet. And if all else fails I'll have a go with the supplied bridge but it just looks like a major faff, think electric players just have to much OCD when it comes to perfect intonation.
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ultratwin
The 25.5" subversion


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm perpetually on the fence regarding 12-string electric bridges with limited saddle options, but as mentioned above, even without individual saddles, things are okay up and down most of the usable neck space and we all know about the natural chorus effects is built in, for better or for worse. Besides, for up the neck fun that's usable (in the studio at least) you can anti-roe the neck by just popping on a capo, retuning, and chime away, worry-free. I do it all the time on the 360/12 and it sounds heavenly.

Conversely, if the trouble of drilling staggered holes-n-ferrules is an option, then a Gotoh bridge will save the day and do wonders for you. I messed around with a near-identical design a decade ago on a Brownsville Choirboy12 and it was pretty much hard to fault.

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dezb1
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bridge looks like a better quality (strat) version of what came in the kit... the capo is a great tip cheers, as if this build works it'll be a bit of studio gear.
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dezb1
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been thinking about the colour scheme was thinking...




But this shade o green

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MatthewK
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

dezb1 wrote:
I mean 12 string acoustics don't have individual adjustments and they do Awreet.

Acoustics and electrics play by different rules, because the pickups on electrics are listening at only one point on the strings. That means electrics sound like crap if the harmonics aren't all precisely intonated. On an acoustic the whole string is being amplified by the soundhole, so you get all the harmonics (not just a subset) and the harmonics of the different strings mesh together to give that rich shimmery sound, so you don't need a precision-intonating bridge. But if you stuck a pickup at one point along the strings, it would sound dead and a bit sour by comparison.
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Fakir Mustache
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cut the top of the headstock to look like a leprechaun hat.

but seriously, it would look good in natural.
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dezb1 wrote:
I only buy synths with mini keys as I like the shortscale synths.
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George
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

MatthewK wrote:
dezb1 wrote:
I mean 12 string acoustics don't have individual adjustments and they do Awreet.

Acoustics and electrics play by different rules, because the pickups on electrics are listening at only one point on the strings. That means electrics sound like crap if the harmonics aren't all precisely intonated. On an acoustic the whole string is being amplified by the soundhole, so you get all the harmonics (not just a subset) and the harmonics of the different strings mesh together to give that rich shimmery sound, so you don't need a precision-intonating bridge. But if you stuck a pickup at one point along the strings, it would sound dead and a bit sour by comparison.

i disagree and it sounds like you're flirting a little with mojo arrows here. acoustic and electric 12 strings sound like hot garbage past the 7th fret, especially on the A and D strings with a wound and an unwound string together if they don't have individual intonation or compensation in some way.

there's really a reason why you don't say players venturing past the 3rd/5th fret on many 12 strings (check youtube, check classic tracks etc). they may use the G, B and high E strings sparingly but otherwise they steer clear. i know that you get the swirly chorus effect of a slight intonation mismatch, but this quickly turns to dissonance the further up you go and it makes the vast majority of the neck unusable. just like that tele video in this thread with that abomination bridge - call him up and ask him to jangle, do single line leads or chords past the 7th fret. unless he's got some kind of complex compensated nut it'd be hilarious.

it depends what you want, but imo most 12 string setups are not practical for the upper frets at all unless you have compensated or individually adjustable saddles.
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dezb1
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have both an abomination bridge (which I like the look of) and the fully intonatable but overly footery bridge that came with the kit. I'm going to try the abomination first as any screw holes I need to add will be hidden by the original should I need to use it.

I considered leaving it natural but 1. I've always wanted a green guitar and 2. Burns double 6 is cool.
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MatthewK
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Joined: 11 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

George wrote:
i disagree and it sounds like you're flirting a little with mojo arrows here. acoustic and electric 12 strings sound like hot garbage past the 7th fret, especially on the A and D strings with a wound and an unwound string together if they don't have individual intonation or compensation in some way.

Yr probably right, I have no experience with 12 strings. But the arguments generally apply to 6 strings, I mean can you imagine a solidbody electric sounding good with a single angled bone saddle? And yet a D28 sounds sweet and well intonated.
Altho, to argue against myself, I'm looking at the 3-saddle bridge of my Musicmaster and you could pretty much draw a straight line through the contact points for all 6 strings. Maybe it's only the modern love for plain G strings which changed the rules - I use wound Gs.
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NickD
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Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 12 string Tele build Reply with quote

George wrote:
MatthewK wrote:
dezb1 wrote:
I mean 12 string acoustics don't have individual adjustments and they do Awreet.

Acoustics and electrics play by different rules, because the pickups on electrics are listening at only one point on the strings. That means electrics sound like crap if the harmonics aren't all precisely intonated. On an acoustic the whole string is being amplified by the soundhole, so you get all the harmonics (not just a subset) and the harmonics of the different strings mesh together to give that rich shimmery sound, so you don't need a precision-intonating bridge. But if you stuck a pickup at one point along the strings, it would sound dead and a bit sour by comparison.

i disagree and it sounds like you're flirting a little with mojo arrows here. acoustic and electric 12 strings sound like hot garbage past the 7th fret, especially on the A and D strings with a wound and an unwound string together if they don't have individual intonation or compensation in some way.

there's really a reason why you don't say players venturing past the 3rd/5th fret on many 12 strings (check youtube, check classic tracks etc). they may use the G, B and high E strings sparingly but otherwise they steer clear. i know that you get the swirly chorus effect of a slight intonation mismatch, but this quickly turns to dissonance the further up you go and it makes the vast majority of the neck unusable. just like that tele video in this thread with that abomination bridge - call him up and ask him to jangle, do single line leads or chords past the 7th fret. unless he's got some kind of complex compensated nut it'd be hilarious.

it depends what you want, but imo most 12 string setups are not practical for the upper frets at all unless you have compensated or individually adjustable saddles.


There is a school of thought that says the jangle comes from the fact that you can't get the intonation perfect, like you say above and that a 12 string wouldn't sound right with perfect intonation.

I dunno TBH
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George
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(soapbox moment here). i appreciate that, but a lot of the 12 string mystique is from starting off with a poor product and working backwards because it appeared on your favourite records, i.e. rickenbackers:

- guitars don't intonate for shit - that's part of the chorusy Rickenbacker Sound™. YOU should avoid major portions of the neck and work out what you're able to get away with. YOU should also buy £30 pyramid flatwounds because they intonate a little bit better
- nuts are too narrow and you can't finger an A chord - YOUR fault for not adjusting how you play. YOU should detune and capo at the 2nd fret to make it playable, or not play A chords altogether
- R tailpiece snaps off - YOUR fault for not using rick approved strings or setting them up properly

but back on topic, the problem with coupled saddles is that you get a small portion that intontates well, a small portion that is passable , and the majority that is unplayable. i believe my properly setup 12 string still sounds like a 12 string and i still get that chorusy sound. however, if that didn't rub i could ever so slightly detune the drone string and i would have the benefit of that out of tune chorus warble AND it would be usable and replicable up the entirety of the neck.

in summation: do not listen to the 12 string brigade. you can trawl youtube for videos of 12 string rick aficionados and it's the same thing: poorly intonated, too heavy strings, playing along to the byrds or beatles not going past the 5th fret and choking out on a narrow broom handle neck, and they can't play a fucking note because of it. this is also why the majority of people hate 12 strings and don't get the most out of them, resell them, or let them gather dust in the corner.
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dezb1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you not like teh Rickenbacker's George?
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NickS
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dezb1 wrote:
Burns double 6 is cool.
Mine has a non-intonatable bridge that's just held in place by pressure, like an old Höfner
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dezb1
The Oppressor


Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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Location: glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickS wrote:
dezb1 wrote:
Burns double 6 is cool.
Mine has a non-intonatable bridge that's just held in place by pressure, like an old Höfner


On a double 6... Pic?
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ultratwin
The 25.5" subversion


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With my tiny little fingers and stubborn will, I like how my 360/12 plays, and I indeed do prefer how it sounds over other "modern" electric XIIs I've played over the years.


OR DO I?


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