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When you can't quite get that sound...
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Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 20617
Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: When you can't quite get that sound... Reply with quote

For a few months I've been messing around at home doing Rock covers and with the gear I have there hasn't been much problem getting close to the sounds I'm copying.

Enter Metallica.

I can't get near Hetfields sound. I've blamed the Amp, cab size, string gauge...

I'm using the Orange Tiny Terror with a 1x12 and I've tried the Amp gain with the tone low, the Amp clean with various pedals like a tubescreamer, Marshall jackhammer, boss ds-2. It's close to the older sound but not the 'Load' era.
I've tried a Jackson with an EMG 81, SG with a Gibson pickup, none of it sounds right. It's thin and lacks that low end thud.
Then I considered string gauge, I'm using 9's. Maybe bottom heavy strings would give me better results?

Without software has anyone got any ideas?

Obviously a Mesa is out of the question but there must be an easier way.

Edit: This is one of the tracks I've been doing


Link

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dezb1 wrote:
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NickS wrote:
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George
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried stacking one of those heavy pedals into the Tubescreamer then into the amp?

That seems to be a bit of metal player's trick, if I remember correctly.

Otherwise, no idea. I don't usually go for these tones
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Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: When you can't quite get that sound... Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
a 1x12 [...] and lacks that low end thud


The rhythm tone has a lot more beefy, proper 'low' resonance that you can't really get out of a single 12" cab in a room (you could probably processs the fuck out of it in the studio, tho). I've recorded a lot with my DSL50 using 4x12, 2x12 and 1x12s, SM57 and the 1x12 always sounded waaaaay more mid-focused; just a matter of physics, innit. My old PA cab CAB gets vaguely close as it's nearer the size of a 2x12 and solid as fuck, and obviously closed-back.

I'd say "EQ pedal in the FX loop" would be the most effective way to get anywhere near, cutting the woofier lower mids to sound less boxy, and so as you're not limited to the amp's EQ stack but...

Fran wrote:
Orange Tiny Terror


No fx loop. Confused Those amps are great, but it's not a chunky modern metal rhythm tone machine; they're don't have the transformer to really push those lows, as well as it having a single tone control.

Related: I really miss how my Marshall sounds through a 2x12 Crying or Very sad
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Bacchus
Whatever's handiest


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that you've set yourself a bit of a challenge there, trying to get a Tiny Terror and a 112 to have that sound. I think that's maybe the fun in doing this, though, that you set yourself certain limits and then try to make it work. Like, if you really want to get that sound, get a half stack.

George's suggestion could be a winner. Or, get a 212. Did you have the Line 6 Flextone?
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sunshiner
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no idea what Metallica sounds like apart from Nothing else matter and Enter sandman. Anyway, my 2 cents would be, find a Les Paul type guitar where neck pickup sits next to the 22nd fret and with a good humbucker you'll get the fatest tone possible. Neck pickups on SG and all kind of superstrats sit way back closer to bridge. On SG it is a part of the design, on superstrats it's because of 24 frets fretboard.
Or tune down an SG/superstrat a half step
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Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's more of an amp/cab issue for sure though.

Ultimately, the actual input guitar into a distorted amp makes so little difference, it's hilarious.
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Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies!

When I posted the thread up it reminded me of one of those n00b threads you see on somewhere like Ultimate Guitar forum but... it is fucking difficult!

George, I tried pushing the Amp but not cascading pedals. The sound has less gain than you think so I'd not tried that.
No Line 6 anymore Paul.
Doog, I think you're right. I'd not considered the limitations of the Tiny Terror or 1x12 cab beforehand, they've coped with stuff like AC/DC, Sabbath and even Sepultura, but they all use a lot of mids.
The cab is obvious but I thought I'd get away with processing the signal.

My last roll of the dice with this rig is trying the Sansamp GT2 clone by Behringer on the Californian setting. I seem to remember the clean mode with the drive maxed out was quite a thuddy thrash tone.

I'm quite enjoying this little adventure, it's got me playing again and learning new stuff. It's more challenging than you think as well Very Happy
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dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
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Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I sold my 4x12.

I thought good riddance at the time but I knew this day would come.
Still, I think we've established the Orange is the majority of the dilemma.
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dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
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dezb1
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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Location: glasgow

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danelectro lipstick pickups are the secret to the modern Metallica sound... Sad but true.
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Last edited by dezb1 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loooooolz... Laughing
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dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
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Fakir Mustache
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Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 3139

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could get that sound with a Metal Muff:

Link


and you also need the top-of-the-line model, because you'll need a full 3-band eq which your amp doesn't have. You have to cut the mids a bit and boost the bass.
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Fran
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Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Fakir.
I thought I'd achieve similar with the Marshall Jackhammer as the EQ on them is really good. But it wasn't quite there.

I've found some interesting stuff on the Digitech RP1000 Multi FX and I've actually got one of these gathering dust.
It gives you cab options and much more EQ than the TT.

This guy on YouTube has done a great demo with a link to all the settings.



Quote:
Load - Load and Reload are actually my favorite Metallica albums. Less layering, no comb filtering (that I can hear), and a fairly dry room makes modelers happy when trying to recreate tones. The only thing lacking is that "tubey" character IMO.
Dist - Screamer (G25,T50,L99)
Amp - '89 RG100 (G50,B5,M5,T5,L75)
Cab - DigiAlt 4x12
pEQ - Low (+9dB@90hz,Q3); Mid (-9dB@500Hz,Q3); High (+5dB@3kHz,Q2)
Reverb - LexStudio (0ms,D25,V25,L35)


LINK

Load album setting is at 5:26


Link

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dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
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Noirie.
YOUTH


Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try Orange Dark Terror. The mini ones are kinda cheap.
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Bacchus
Whatever's handiest


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, an EQ pedal? Scoop them mids?
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Fakir Mustache
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Joined: 25 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noirie. wrote:
Try Orange Dark Terror. The mini ones are kinda cheap.

You can't get that kind of distortion with the Micro Dark, not sure about the Dark Terror. The Micro Dark simply doesn't have enough distortion.

Also, I find the eq is too fiddly (had a Micro Dark). You can cut the mids, but you lose all control over the low/high balance. You might get the tones you want if you get lucky with the speaker.

The middle of the range Metal Muff has the same eq type. I find it useless, you need at least two knobs to seriously control the sound.

Actually I've gotten tones similar to the video I posted (that video is not mine) with a Pocket Metal Muff and parametric eq pedal to cut the mids. You can control the low/high balance with the tone knob on the amp. For this reason, I think the Tiny Terror and Micro Terror are more useful than the Darks.
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Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've got a half decent computer or an iPad or summat I can 100% recommend Amplitube and the lot.

Every now and then I do a 'lets play along with this album and try to nail the sound' and I get pretty fucking close; amp and pedal models are fucking bonkers nowdays.


Link


Link


They'll get you closer than bullying your own gear will, for sure. Loadsa fun.
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Concretebadger
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: Leeds Leeds LEEDS

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda like the Load/Reload guitar sounds...it's more hard rock than metal, so I prefer it over the buzzy thrashy tone of their early stuff. I still enjoy Ride the Lightning and Puppets, but it's not a sound that I've ever felt the urge to emulate.

The speaker could well be part of the problem...Oranges are usually fitted with V30s so if that's what's in yours, you could try something like a GT-75 or even a hot 100 for a flatter response instead of the V30's upper mids peak. If it's only a 1x12 you're using, it's relatively easy to do. Zilla do 'em with any Celestion you want for as little as 300.

Otherwise, there's the option of a post-distortion pedal eq...Sansamps are great for that. I remember how my old BDDI could completely transform the sound with a guitar, even through a midrangey amp like a Blackstar HT-5. They still make the "US Metal" version of the 'character' series, which might give a more Recto sort of chug. A quick bit of googling mentions Triaxis preamps and Mk IICs, so I suppose the Mesa route is an easy one. I might give my F50's gain channel a try later this week and see what it can do! Twisted Evil
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dezb1
The Oppressor


Joined: 01 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:
Loooooolz... Laughing


Wasn't joking. Proof at 34:40ish

https://youtu.be/x4rbcpm31vc
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Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concretebadger wrote:
I kinda like the Load/Reload guitar sounds...it's more hard rock than metal, so I prefer it over the buzzy thrashy tone of their early stuff. I still enjoy Ride the Lightning and Puppets, but it's not a sound that I've ever felt the urge to emulate.

The speaker could well be part of the problem...Oranges are usually fitted with V30s so if that's what's in yours, you could try something like a GT-75 or even a hot 100 for a flatter response instead of the V30's upper mids peak. If it's only a 1x12 you're using, it's relatively easy to do. Zilla do 'em with any Celestion you want for as little as 300.

Otherwise, there's the option of a post-distortion pedal eq...Sansamps are great for that. I remember how my old BDDI could completely transform the sound with a guitar, even through a midrangey amp like a Blackstar HT-5. They still make the "US Metal" version of the 'character' series, which might give a more Recto sort of chug. A quick bit of googling mentions Triaxis preamps and Mk IICs, so I suppose the Mesa route is an easy one. I might give my F50's gain channel a try later this week and see what it can do! Twisted Evil

I like those two albums for the same reason.

Tried the Sansamp clone, getting closer. It's almost a clean distortion but sounds aggressive.
Dug out the Digitech modelling fx but I've lost the bastard adaptor and its one of those opposite polarity type things Mad

Doog, I know what your saying but I'm almost a stuck in the past technophobe. This shit might get to band level as well so I want an array of sounds to hand that's portable.
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dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
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Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 19090
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fran wrote:

Doog, I know what your saying but I'm almost a stuck in the past technophobe. This shit might get to band level as well so I want an array of sounds to hand that's portable.


I gotcha, man; it's not an approach for everyone Smile
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