ShortScale Forum Index www.shortscale.org
Head 'n Neck Above
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
UploaderUploader   ShortScale WikiWiki   ShortScale RadioRadio  ShortScale WikiBuilder

Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ShortScale Forum Index -> Short Scales
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BridgerHumbucker
.
.


Joined: 18 Aug 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Does Neck Angle make a guitar play harder? Reply with quote

I hope someone could possibly answer a question for me: Does the angle of the neck on a bolt on Squier ( a Jaguar in this case) influence the ' stiffness' / tension of the strings?
I have arthritis and after 40 plus years of playing, have had to switch to 24 inch scale Jaguars to ease the pressure on my hands. I have 3 different Jaguars that were set up by the same luthier ( frets leveled, action low as possible, neck nearly dead straight all to facilitate ease of play ability) 2 of the guitars are of the same run ( Squier HH from around 2011 with the all in one 3 point hard tail tilt bridge / 3 screws - 2 on the sides - bass and treble and one center rear)
The other is a Squier Modern Vintage that I had the bridge replaced with the same 3 point bridge as the other 2.
The 1st of the 2 Squier HH Jags plays like ice skating with butter on your feet, the second came back and played stiff/ harder for no apparent reason ( again set up the very same way). I just got the Squier Modern Vintage Jag back today ( again with the same 3 point all in one bridge installed) and it played as easy ( if not more so) as the 1st HH Jag.
After much going over and scrutinizing, the only thing I came up with was the 1st HH Jag and the Squier Modern Vintage had nearly the same neck tilt ( I dont have the tools to judge actual angle, but with my calipers, from the top of the fret board/end of neck to the top of the pick guard, they both set about 5.50 - 5.60 mm above the face of the guitar, the 2nd hard playing HH Jag on the other hand sets almost a full mm lower at 4.50 mm. So with way to much info, could anyone possibly tell me if this does indeed influence string tension, or could it be something else.
Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
George
.
.


Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 19807
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There could be a couple of other factors, such as the action on the tighter guitar being a bit higher, or the strings themselves (brand and how new they are etc.), but essentially, yes, string compliance (a little bit different to string tension) is the feeling of a guitars strings tightness or looseness. Assuming the same strings, the tension remains the same, as strings need to reach a specific tension to reach a certain pitch.

This is a really good article on it: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

To summarise, compliance is affected by break angles past the nut and saddles created by different things:

- string trees or angled headstocks
- angle and distance of string from the bridge to the string anchors
- bridge saddle type (think wide dull angles on roller bridges vs sharp angles on a standard tune-o-matic)

Tighter feeling strings:


Looser feeling strings:


I'm not sure exactly what you're describing, but if a neck is shimmed so it tilts toward the headstock, the bridge will be higher up than the others which could mean a sharper break angle and less compliance (tighter strings).


Last edited by George on Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BridgerHumbucker
.
.


Joined: 18 Aug 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George wrote:
There could be a couple of other factors, such as the action on the tighter guitar being a bit higher, or the strings themselves (brand and how new the strings are etc.), but essentially, yes, string compliance (a little bit different to string tension) is the feeling of a guitars strings tightness or looseness. Assuming the same strings, the tension remains the same, as strings need to reach a specific tension to reach a certain pitch.

This is a really good article on it: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

To summarise, compliance is affected by break angles past the nut and saddles created by different things:

- string trees or angled headstocks
- angle and distance of string from the bridge to the string anchors
- bridge saddle type (think wide dull angles on roller bridges vs sharp angles on a standard tune-o-matic)

Tighter feeling strings:


Looser feeling strings:


If a neck is shimmed so it tilts toward the headstock, the bridge will be higher up than the others which could mean a sharper break angle and less compliance (tighter strings), but it's worth looking at other factors.

Wow George, this is excellent, anyone else have a thought on the matter???
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DanHeron
.
.


Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 3480
Location: Manchester, UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

George's info is good however from your post it seems (I might have read this wrong) the one that feels tighter is the one with LESS of a neck angle? i.e. flatter in the neck pocket? If anything that would create less of a break angle over the saddles and therefore shouldn't make the strings feel tighter.

Seems obvious but are all the strings the same? Brand and guages?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
robroe
Bon Jovi Fan Club!!1


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 43917
Location: Ironically Pious

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you got 200 bucks to waste

buy 2 squier bullet mustangs

play around shimming the neck pocket with one at all kinds of angles.
leave the other one stock


in the end you got 2 quality guitars ripe for modding and one that you can play without your hand catching on fire after 10 mintues
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sunshiner
.
.


Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Posts: 3185
Location: Around the corner

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How big are frets on your guitars? I find that jumbo frets add extra tension to the general feel. Medium frets make a gigantic difference for me - my left hand gets fatigued far less quickly and I have more control over my playing. Maybe you should try vintage sized frets? Though they are not good for bends

Also skinnier sets of strings like 7,8,9s are easier to play

If any of your guitars have a tune-o-matic bridge try to flip strings so they go over the stop tailpiece - that also creates lesser tension
_________________
matte30is wrote:
Someone man up and get a balloon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BridgerHumbucker
.
.


Joined: 18 Aug 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to everyone that posted, heres a few points to your posts
1. I may be playing the lightest gauge string in the world 36-28-20-13-10 and 7 AND tuned 1/2 step down ( Eb)
and yes they intonate, luckily i have a really light touch and can stay in tune. All guitars are the same gauge and string type ( D'Addario)
and all guitars 24 inch scale.
2. fret size in about medium jumbo ( that's what fender describes them, they are not too fat or wide, with C-profile maple neck with 9.5"-radius rosewood fingerboard ( actually the radius' on all of them have been flattened more closer to a 12 radius in the middle after my luthier leveled the frets on them all, again out of 4 guitars, only the one plays hard)
3. the bridge on the hard playing jag is almost level now with fret board ( the other 2 with the same bridge is tilted back) it in theory has less of a break than the other 2 easy playing guitars ( and yes originally it started at the same break angle as the other 2 easy playing guitars)
4. and I am seriously thinking about just going ahead and shimming the neck on the hard playing one, cause, nobody wants their hands to catch on fire after 10 minutes of playing...
Any other comments, thoughts ???? please help me figure out this rubics cube missing a tile.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MatthewK
.
.


Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 762
Location: Hobart, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be looking at the thickness and profile of the necks - the perceived effort of fretting and playing is heavily influenced by the shape your hand makes around the neck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 20434
Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George wrote:
There could be a couple of other factors, such as the action on the tighter guitar being a bit higher, or the strings themselves (brand and how new they are etc.), but essentially, yes, string compliance (a little bit different to string tension) is the feeling of a guitars strings tightness or looseness. Assuming the same strings, the tension remains the same, as strings need to reach a specific tension to reach a certain pitch.

This is a really good article on it: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

To summarise, compliance is affected by break angles past the nut and saddles created by different things:

- string trees or angled headstocks
- angle and distance of string from the bridge to the string anchors
- bridge saddle type (think wide dull angles on roller bridges vs sharp angles on a standard tune-o-matic)

Tighter feeling strings:


Looser feeling strings:


I'm not sure exactly what you're describing, but if a neck is shimmed so it tilts toward the headstock, the bridge will be higher up than the others which could mean a sharper break angle and less compliance (tighter strings).


Quality post George.

I used to raise the tailpiece on Epiphones to give the guitar a 'loose' feel. So I'd definitely say the neck angle will also affect the tension.

There are lots of other factors of course.

I also found D'addario strings had a looser feel than say Ernie Balls, so started using them as well.
_________________
dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fran
The Curmudgeon


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 20434
Location: Nottingham, Englandshire.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always pays to give the frets a polish now and then as well.

I cut a fret slot on an old plastic credit card, place it over the first fret and gently rub the fret with fine .0000 wire wool, working all the way up the neck.
It will clean off any gunk and give that smooth feel especially on string bending.
You could go one further and use a compound and polishing disc with a dremmel.

You mention arthritis in your hand, have you considered super light gauge strings?

The Reverend Willys .07 gauge designed with/for Billy Gibbons are really good strings. They sound excellent and don't break easily.

LINK

*Edit* I just saw you already tried that Smile
_________________
dezb1 wrote:
Stop fucking about and get an SD-1

NickS wrote:
Earl Grey tea is flavoured with bergamot oil, which is extracted by crushing the anal glands of cliff-nesting seabirds in a press.

brandonwinmill wrote:
Maybe i'll sell my internet. It's lost its fun since i already beat it twice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robroe
Bon Jovi Fan Club!!1


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 43917
Location: Ironically Pious

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side note.

My mom had this shit called "trigger finger".

It's genetic lucky me I found out.

It's where the tendon in your hand that's attached to your finger gets all messed up and tries to get out of your skin. From the inside out.

Ask your Dr to check it out.

The surgery to fix it looks like some kinda 1100s Christian torture shit

Hidden: 
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BridgerHumbucker
.
.


Joined: 18 Aug 2017
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robroe wrote:
Side note.

My mom had this shit called "trigger finger".

It's genetic lucky me I found out.

It's where the tendon in your hand that's attached to your finger gets all messed up and tries to get out of your skin. From the inside out.

Ask your Dr to check it out.

The surgery to fix it looks like some kinda 1100s Christian torture shit

Hidden: 

GAH!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robroe
Bon Jovi Fan Club!!1


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 43917
Location: Ironically Pious

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i don't have any symptoms yet. but she didn't develop any until she was 50
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 18967
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

George wrote:

This is a really good article on it: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.ht.


This is great, thanks George; have never seen this topic properly discussed without someone bringing fucken TONEWOODS and ENDLESS SUSTAIN and other terms that are completely irrelevant when talking about electric guitars.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kingkiller
.
.


Joined: 02 Jun 2017
Posts: 339
Location: Dumbtown, Florida

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doog wrote:
George wrote:

This is a really good article on it: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.ht.


This is great, thanks George; have never seen this topic properly discussed without someone bringing fucken TONEWOODS and ENDLESS SUSTAIN and other terms that are completely irrelevant when talking about electric guitars.

Nah dude tonewood dude resonance dude pickups don’t matter dude just get the best tonewood dude. John Mayer made the Silver Sky because PRS has the best tonewood dude.
_________________
Doog wrote:
Now tell the Pope about your lunch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MatthewK
.
.


Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 762
Location: Hobart, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUSTAINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MatthewK
.
.


Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 762
Location: Hobart, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Doog
can i get uhhh


Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 18967
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can go and get a bite, and hear that joe bananamassager lick ring out, sweet creamy sustain
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MatthewK
.
.


Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 762
Location: Hobart, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nnnnnnnnn nnn mnnmmnn nn mnnnnn nnnnnmmmmnn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
robroe
Bon Jovi Fan Club!!1


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 43917
Location: Ironically Pious

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that note just made it from Australasia to buffalo and now its going to ECHOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ShortScale Forum Index -> Short Scales All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Anti Bot Question MOD - phpBB MOD against Spam Bots
Blocked registrations / posts: 587475 / 0

Guitars at Musician's Friend

Help support this site by clicking the above link!