Tone of 24" scale vs. 24 3/4 vs. 25 1/2 ?

[LameDog]

Thanks George,- and also Porterhaus for the backup quote.

Providing you a video of the tuning method is a bit too advanced for me, will try to learn how to post vids. I was using the same strings, same scale length, just changing the tension in a controlled way...pretty simple stuff really, but you need a good enough electronic tuner.

Yes my small experiments were based on acoustic difference, and I do concede that once a guitar is plugged in then everything else takes over to some extent...but the strings are the starting point I feel and it may be worth knowing that the string tension makes a difference to the overtones there. For instance it may matter if you go to a guitar shop, but the owner has just tuned the strings to approximately standard pitch...that 1/2 semitone flat or sharp on the strings could give you the wrong impression of the guitar.

[honeyiscool]

If you use that formula D'Addario has on their website you will see that reducing scale length from 25.5" to 24" results in almost exactly the same decrease in string tension as tuning to Eb instead of E. I think most people would agree that playing a barre A chord on a guitar tuned to Eb vs one tuned to E do sound different. Less string tension means less sustain and less brightness, period.

It's pretty obvious that scale length lets you use different string gauges and tunings on a different guitars and that definitely affects tone. Most shortscalers seem to play with heavier strings and are not likely to down tune as much. All this probably makes the string sound of our short scales quite a bit darker that long scales. Of course, my new 27" scale has humbuckers so even with .008 strings it sounds quite dark but if I had exactly the same pickups in it as a Mustang I am sure it will be noticeable.

If you're that skeptical, just take your B string and tune it up to an E. It should be able to handle it. Now tell me the two different strings don't sound different.

Of course by the time you hear the guitars in action the differences between two guitars are rarely greater than the differences between two players which is why you often hear about some gear used on some record and you go he/she used WHAT?!?!? on some song when you had always assumed he/she played a very different guitar.

[LameDog]

Yeah, thanks for that reply.

You have a 27" scale guitar!? Do tell.

Yes tuning down a semitone on a 25 1/2 is almost a 24" scale, you're right I measured it.

At 24" tension, to me, the tone is almost that of a Spanish Guitar when strummed. Melodies are pleasing and uniform and stable in tone? In terms of flavour...don't ask me, but that's how it is coming to me...the tone is like that nice taste of raw peas straight out of their pods, sort of fresh and rounded and constant in taste. A strat has a bit of lemon juice in it, and 24 3/4 is more Port wine flavour. Weird.

You mentioned a 27" scale, (was that was a typo error?). I recently bought a 25 1/2 scale guitar. I noticed today that this was tuned 2/3rds of a semi tone sharp above the standard tuning of EADGBE by the shop. It has gauge 8 strings on it. Strange to say, this tuning has a distinctive tone too! It is bluesy like a 24 3/4, but it has more ice in it, cool like spearmint.

[SKC Willie]

If you're that skeptical, just take your B string and tune it up to an E. It should be able to handle it. Now tell me the two different strings don't sound different.

this doesn't change the scale length of the guitar, it changes tension. The length from nub to bridge would still be 25.5 on a standard Fender. Tension and scale are two different things. Sure, changing the scale changes the tension of the strings but I want to see the same pickups, pots, etc. etc. etc. but using DIFFERENT stings to keep the tension on each string the same. You would obviously run into the problem of the different strings so, you would have to experiments before that one testing strings to prove that they effected the tone as little as possible.

what you're saying, is that tension effects tone. if that is that case, you could take scale completely out of the equation, change strings sizes until you got the same tension and it wouldn't matter what the scale of the guitar. I agree there is certainly changes in tone from these small issues but I don't think ONE of them is enough to change the tone so much that it really makes a difference.

[SKC Willie]

My struggle is I want a bluesy toned guitar with a whammy. Most 24 2/3 scale guitars don't have whammy bars. Jaguars etc...do have whammy bars, but can I get the blues tone on them? So I am exploring.

you have lots of options: a les paul with a bigsby, a 335 with a bigsby, get a strat or tele and put one of those conversion warmoth necks on it . . . just sayin', your dreams aren't far from reality

[hotrodperlmutter]

wtf is a 24 2/3 guitar?

[SKC Willie]

wtf is a 24 2/3 guitar?

a guitar for people that have problems with fractions?

[hotrodperlmutter]

i've heard about those. i think they're PRS'.

25 5/8" = 25.625"
24 2/3" = 24.6666666666666667"

[honeyiscool]

If you want two guitars with exactly the same string tension and gauges but different scale lengths, take one set of strings, put it on a 24" guitar, then take the identical strings, put it on a 25.5" scale guitar, and downtune half a step. The two guitars will be within 0.6% of each other in terms of string tension.

If you want two guitars with exactly the same tuning and tension but different scale lengths, putting EXL110+ (10.5s) on your 24" and EXL110 (10s) on your 25.5" gets you within 2%, a 25.25" would get you within 0.1% but I think that's more of a hollow top scale length.

You have a 27" scale guitar!? Do tell.

[youtube][/youtube]

Well it's a 7 string, tuned to drop A with extremely light strings, I've never had 8s before! I don't use a string set, I just use single strings.

[DGW]

But the thing about 24 scales I note people say is "playability" (unless you have enormous hands) and a "darker" or "deeper", "percussive" and perhaps more "plinky" tone. Perfect for Punk? Thicker strings used on 24, and lower, scales also means of course there is more metal vibrating over the pickups, which means more volume output too and a thicker tone whatever.

I agree. My buddie has a $3000 EVH and whenever we jam he is always amazed at the tone I get.

[LameDog]

Oh err, my head was in a spin already, how its taking off like a helicopter. What is everyone saying?

Yes I take the point about Les Paul guitars, but do Bigsbys give a good divebomb?

Someone asked what 24 3/4 was, well it's the length of the string from nut to bridge, on some guitars. But perhaps you're question was an ironic one? As in "why are you talking about Gibson guitars on a short scale forum, such guitars are out of our conscious thought"?!

I am trying to only deal with 1) string length, and 2) string tension, as if affects overtones, the overtones are not quite the same as "tone" of the guitar in total. So yes I would agree that all the other factors about a guitar add or subtract from this.

I am still on my experiments with string tension, and noticed as far as I can tell, that tuning UP a semitone from standard tuning on a 25 1/2 gives a lucid, clear tone like a fresh glass of cool water (sorry that's how it comes to me: synesthesia or something) and has a similar stable round tone to the 24" scale tuning (ie tuning down a semitone plus one degree more). It approximates the 27 inch scale. This interests me, as there is a pattern here. I think you get a very similar repeat tone if you tune a Gibson down a semitone or tune it up a semitone. They sound similar to each other. This tuning has more sustain and is lyrical, but still keeps some of the Gibson bluesy tone. I notice these differences most in lead playing when you string bend. If you just play chords you may not hear much difference, either a bit more mellow or a bit brighter I guess. I hope to describe this better in a later post.

[LameDog]

my new 27" scale ....(guitar)

Thank you very much, I looked at your video and you are talking of the Douglas Hadron 727, according to your video. Never heard of such a guitar before, so thanks.

So it’s a 27 inch tuned to standard tuning. Interesting.

Although in your video you seemed to concentrate on the bass strings, you did occasionally strum the treble strings, and I could hear that nice clear cool fresh water tone to the guitar, due to the raised string tension to that pitch.

Just as an experiment you could always try tuning down 1/3 lower than standard tuning and see if you notice a spearmint bluesy tone emerge?

I tried out my 25 1/2 again today, and am getting sold on the idea of tuning 2/3rds highter than standard tuning. There is a practical problem with this if you play with a band, because then they all have to tune up to you, which may not suit them. So another guitar is needed....the Douglas Hadron or similar ones with a 27 inch scale. Umm...but even then I would have to tune down a 1/3rd of a semitone....so anyone heard of a 26 1/2 inch scale (or thereabouts), or care to look at marketing one?

But this old guitar is all I can afford.....
"if you put enough nice thick gravy on it, and they've had a few pints, no one will taste the difference"

[George]

wtf is a 24 2/3 guitar?

Well done for picking that out, AGAIN.

[arcadedave]

What music are you wanting to play? Blues with EVH dive bombs?

[gaybear]

What music are you wanting to play? Blues with EVH dive bombs?

haha, i was wondering the same thing

as far as the topic of the thread. I really have no idea. it's definitely all about comfort for me (my preference is 24 3/4). Maybe my ears just aren't that good, but i can't imagine really noticing that much of a tone difference once everything else (amp/pickups/playing style/pedals) is taken into account

[Nick]

Its blind to think that scale length does not affect tone. I really don't want to get in the physics of wavelengths and the length of of an object... there is definitely a difference.

A Jaguar with Jazzmaster pickups does not sound like a Jazzmaster.

I'm not going to read through 4 pages of opinions when this is the truth right here. Just as you could play the same note on 3 different strings/frets, it's going to have a different tone even if it's the same pitch, neck length affects tone.

Only trouble is that each guitar has its own sound which can be a combination of all the parts of the guitar...neck joint, bridge, tailpiece, wood, neck joint, pickups, pots, tone cap, string angle at bridge and nut, nut and saddle materials. You can't really put in black and white how the scale length affects tone from instrument to instrument. This is why I usually don't consider scale length or any specific construction element when I buy a guitar, also why I don't mod my guitars anymore. I buy guitars that I are already how I like them.

[LameDog]

you have lots of options:.. get a strat or tele and put one of those conversion warmoth necks on it . . . just sayin', your dreams aren't far from reality

Yes thank you for that, am now looking at Warmouth conversion necks as a way forward.

Thanks for reminding me to not go on and on...its a problem I have .

So, with heavier gauge strings on, if you tune your Strat down a full tone and you may notice that the
the 22 3/4 (second fret) also has a fender like twang.
Or you tune your Gibson down a full tone and notice that
21 1/2 (second fret) has a bluesy tone very similar to the standard Gibson tuning.
Perhaps someone else has noticed that.
Is it some sort of pattern there? Go up or down a full tone and you get a similar tone to the one you started with. Go only a semitone up or down and you get a different tone to what you started with, but the two semitone positions have similarities to each other too. Hope I explained that clear enough...you may have to grapple with what I am trying to say here, it is simple, but I do not know how to express it better at the moment.

I must say the comment posted above about buying a guitar on it's specific tone as a guitar in total, wood, bridge etc...and not modifying seems very wise. My problem would be to first form a rough idea amongst all the bewildering choices of guitars, what the minimum spec is that I think I want. If scale length does have an underlying affect on tone, then that is one issue I would like to settle in my mind before deciding on a guitar.

The 24" scale is versatile. If you tune up between 1/3rd and 4/10ths of a semitone (to my best calculation at the moment 37.5% is the ideal), then you have the Gibson tone. On the other hand, tune down 37.5% and you have the Byrdland tone (that scale length is hard to find in a guitar today). The Byrdland tone is bluesy like the Gibson tone, but with a brighter (hmm...slightly minty!) tone. Also tune from standard tuning down to the first fret and you get the Strat tone (which is why the Fender Mini-Strat is that scale length). You won't need a change of strings for any of these tunings if you are using 11's, though the Gibson-type tuning may be a bit stiff for bends: so go for the Byrdland tuning instead.

My only concern with this proposal (ie: I am thinking of buying a 24" for the above reasons, but for this one objection) is the thickness of the strings seems to remove some of the delicate nuances possible on thinner strings when hammering on, or pulling off with chords. For instance when you use your pinky on the first string, on the D open chord.

Gibson tunings make chords sound more unified and gentler. But if you are EVH inclined you need a strat, I guess to get the screech (So tune your 24" down a semitone to get a stat tone?). You may notice the various tone difference the most when you play lead on these different tunings.

But realistically with tone, once you add distortion, room noise, other players sounds, does it matter a toss? It may do, sometimes. Possibly a guitarist needs to know these tone changes are possible as part of their skill base?

[LameDog]

this post moved to my previous post

[NickS]

My brain hurts.

[LameDog]

For the following discussion I am working on the basis that a 24 inch scale, at standard tuning, is the most stable arrangement the string/tension relationship can take. So below is my attempt at understanding what is going on.

Imagine a string strung from the nut of a 24 inch guitar to it’s bridge. This string is then plucked and vibrates backwards and forwards, away from and towards the fret board. Only it does not just do this as one big wave form only, but forms into smaller waves, that cross each other at various points, causing the harmonics to the basic note, in a complex pattern. Each full tone along the string, the wave crosses itself, and at each semitone along the string the wave moves to it's highest point of travel. So for instance, just above the first fret the wave or string is at it’s highest point of travel, it then comes down again at the second fret to a sort of rest point of minimal to-and-fro movement. The distance between one still point and the next being a tone. I will call that rest point a "still point�. The wave then crosses over itself at this “still point�, and repeats itself down the string at every full tone. That is to say, each tone is at a still point on a 24 inch sale, when tuned to standard tuning. Above the first fret it is vibrating the most it can, just as it is similarly vibrating the most it can at the third fret, and the fifth fret, etc... Also, if it is vibrating the most it can at the first fret, then in theory, if you went a whole tone higher from the first fret, that would place would also be vibrating at the most it can. This whole tone higher than the first fret happens to be at 25 1/2 inches: the twangy Fender tone. So is it the case that the Strat is set in such a way that the bridge and nut clamp the string at a point in it’s natural cycle where it wants to vibrate the most, but he bridge and nut restrain this natural action because they physically fix the string so it cannot move as it would in free space.

Does this explanation provide some clue as to why different scale lengths, at standard tuning, give different qualities to the note's overtones?

Here's what I think may be going on.

It has to do with the strings natural wave forming properties, if it were not bound by a nut at one end, and a bridge at the other. Sound is a wavelength, a measurable physical distance along a line, and certain lengths of strings either fit this natural length of the wavelength or do not. You can either change the length of the string to fit the frequency, or change the frequency to fit the length of the string. If the nut is place right on top of where a wave at its full crest,- the natural wave the string makes,- is interrupted then you are restraining the string at a point where it naturally wants to move to and fro the most. It therefore yanks at the nut, sending a new wave down the string, creating new overtones, and my guess is it is this tug of the string against the nut and bridge which gives the Fender it's twang. Whereas on a 24 inch scale, it just happens that the nut is restraining the string where it naturally forms a “still point�, so the vibration is not disrupted. So if you tune a Strat to have standard tuning at the second fret it still has a Fender twang, as you are interrupting the string in a similar phase of it’s natural wave forming. These natural wave forming phases repeat this pattern every full tone, all the way down the string. Likewise if you have a 27 inch scale neck, tuned to standard pitch, it has a similar tone to a 24 inch neck at standard pitch, as the two scales are a whole tone apart.

So if this is correct, 24 inches represents a still point for a string tuned to standard pitch. And every full tone up or down that string also falls on a still point. Possibly 25 1/2 is exactly in the middle of two still points. If this understanding is correct then possibly Gibson's 24 3/4 scale, and Byrdlands 23 1/2 scale, also cause a tug on the nut, but to less of an extent, as they are both closer to the "still point" than a Fender is. Is this why different scale lengths take on different characteristics in overtones?

I am trying my best to be clear here, but it is hard to explain in words, it really needs a diagram.