Convince me I have a nice guitar. Fender Duo Sonic

edsdds · Post by **edsdds** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:16 am

So I have always just had two guitars a Strat and a Les Paul. The strat looks, plays and sounds awesome and it something I put together in the colors I wanted. The LP is my 25 year old Epi that had everthing upgraded over the last two decates.

So I wanted to have something that had a single coil, middle position, and a humbucker. So I figured the Duo Sonic HS would be perfect. Its easy to play but the 9s have to go. It for sure can use a setup to my liking. So looks, comfort, fit and finish is all good. However, the sounds I am having trouble adjusting to . My ears want to hear a neck single coil but it seems a little off to me. The middle position is nice and so is the humbucker. However when I compare them to my other guitars all positions seem to be missing something and I cant figure it out. FYI my strat has Fat 50s and my LP Classic 57s. Is this Duo always going to sound kinda like it falls short to me because I am looking for the wrong thing here? Or will strings maybe make a big difference? Is the super short scale and type of pickups just going to be that sound? What are your thoughts on the stock pickups?

Thanks in advance short scale experts.

paul_ · Post by **paul_** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:40 am

This isn't really shortscale specific advice, but I'd check the value of the potentiometers (volume and tone controls). Fenders with a neck single coil and bridge humbucker always have to compromise on this; if it has 250k pots the bucker will be muddy and the single coil will have creamy vintage-strat like tone properties on full whack (this is the stock Jag-Stang's problem), but if it has 500k pots to make the bucker sound better, the single coil will be spiky and bright compared to a vintage style Strat sound. From your description I'd bet that the latter is what's going on here. The easiest way to deal with it would be to use a darker sounding neck pickup, but there are theoretically other solutions like a treble bleed capacitor or something.

This may not be responsible for the exact/total shortcoming you're experiencing with the positions on the guitar, but odds are your Strat with fat 50s has 250k pots and your Epi LP has 500k, so if they're your benchmark for Fender-type single coil and Gibson-type humbucker sounds that could be the reason something seems off to you.

edsdds · Post by **edsdds** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:54 am

Wow very good info never would have thought about this. So do I get a 375k pot?

So there really isnt a pot fix for this correct? Mini humbucker in the neck and 500k pots basically makes this another LP type of guitar?

paul_ wrote:Check the value of the potentiometers (volume and tone controls). Fenders with a neck single coil and bridge humbucker always have to compromise on this; if it has 250k pots the bucker will be muddy (this is the Jag-Stang's problem), but if it has 500k pots to make the bucker sound better, the single coil will be spiky and bright compared to a vintage style Strat sound (from your description I'd bet that the latter is what's going on here).

It may not be the exact lacking you have with the positions on the guitar, but odds are your Strat with fat 50s has 250k pots and your Epi LP has 500k, so if they're your benchmark for Fender-type single coil and Gibson-type humbucker sounds the Duo-Sonic might have qualities from either/or lacking by comparison based on the pot values.

paul_ · Post by **paul_** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:57 am

Yeah, I edited my first post to mention some other possibilities but the easiest thing to do would be to accept that this guitar will have a brighter neck single coil than you're used to or backing off on the tone knob when you're just on the neck pickup. That's at least a good place to check this theory... see if it improves the sound to your ears if you just turn the knobs down a bit on the neck pickup, that at least identifies the problem. Lower value pots all round will just make the bridge pickup sound darker.

Another potential fix would be a P-90 inspired neck pickup. Then you'll still have some of that single-coil articulation but it'll sound better with the 500k pots like the humbucker does... P-90s are traditionally used with 500ks as well which is how I have most of my Gibson-style guitars (neck single coil and bridge bucker).

Fakir Mustache · Post by **Fakir Mustache** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:25 am

I imagine you've probably tried to lower and raise the pickups because you're not a noob.

Maybe you should try different pickups. I don't know about the new Fender pickups, but the single coils in my Squier CV Mustang are a lot darker than the vintage ones, despite reading similar resistance values (no doubt differences in the magnets, wire gauge and so on).

I also remember playing someone's Vista with humbuckers, those pickups sounded nothing like other humbuckers, much more compressed. Not bad sounding in their own way, but really different.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:45 am

Gibson does make a 300k pot, but not sure if that would sound much different than a 250k.

paul_ · Post by **paul_** » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:55 am

Gibsons from about 1973 onward used 300k linear pots for volume controls and 500k audio for tone, but '50s-'60s Gibsons (and Custom Historic reissues) and Epiphones use 500k audio all around, and I think newer Gibsons (which have PCB mounted control modules) may as well.
I too question the idea of a 300k pot versus 250k because build tolerances in either direction could mean they come out negligibly close. Most 500k pots actually measure in the high 400s on a meter. There are some Gibson guys who think it's the perfect balance but they also obsess over the minutia in pickup types and blueslawyer treble boost pedals and all that so it gets a bit murky in terms of general advice.

Also using linear pots for volume controls isn't so great because they basically turn off halfway down the taper... of course, that matters less if you don't touch the knobs much. I actually use the volume knobs on my Gibsons to clean up when I'm running through my Plexi but I never have them down that low for any other reason than to silence the guitar during downtime when I'm recording or running loud.

edsdds · Post by **edsdds** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:22 am

Very good points. I did adjust the string height and it make a little difference. Could it also be that the stock neck pickup on these guitars is just not that good ? The bridge pickup in hb mode and split sounds good. Or does this all come back to the 500k pots s?

Fakir Mustache wrote:I imagine you've probably tried to lower and raise the pickups because you're not a noob.

Maybe you should try different pickups. I don't know about the new Fender pickups, but the single coils in my Squier CV Mustang are a lot darker than the vintage ones, despite reading similar resistance values (no doubt differences in the magnets, wire gauge and so on).

I also remember playing someone's Vista with humbuckers, those pickups sounded nothing like other humbuckers, much more compressed. Not bad sounding in their own way, but really different.

Post by **dots** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:15 pm

the 9s it's strung with are also contributing as you're not creating enough tension in the string at the scale length of the neck. there is debate over the sweet spot for string gauges on shortscales, and i happen to be in the 11 camp. they're louder, have a fuller sound, last longer, and hold tune better imho.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:20 pm

dots wrote:the 9s it's strung with are also contributing as you're not creating enough tension in the string at the scale length of the neck. there is debate over the sweet spot for string gauges on shortscales, and i happen to be in the 11 camp. they're louder, have a fuller sound, last longer, and hold tune better imho.

Same, I know it's not an exact science but my rule of thumb has always been 9's or 10's on a 25.5", 10's or 11's on a 24.75, and 11's or 12's on a 24"

Post by **dots** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:06 pm

right, i think i finally settled on doing 11s even for my gibson scales; it's a little stiffer that way, but it just feels so solid with improved tone and sustain to make up for anything lost in bendability.

10s for sure on strat scales. was having problems getting reliable tuning stability w/ 9s on my fat strat, and the bigger gauge cured all of it.

robroe · Post by **robroe** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:26 pm

Sell it. Buy a Venus.

Venus has HB/S pickups like you want.
Venus has Gibson scale that you are used to.
Stock Venus pickups are no joke. I have all kinds of Seymour Duncan stuff laying around the workbench and never once got the urge to put one in.

Or if it's just the neck pickup that's bugging you put in a SD SJAG-1 jaguar pickup in and dont look back

robroe · Post by **robroe** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:33 pm

dots wrote: there is debate over the sweet spot for string gauges on shortscales,

Theres no debate. The correct answer is .13s

edsdds · Post by **edsdds** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:02 am

What is a Venus? I honestly cant find one. Made by who?

The Duncan pickup option sounds like a pretty good one but then I would want a 59 in the bridge. UGH here come the mods.

robroe wrote:Sell it. Buy a Venus.

Venus has HB/S pickups like you want.
Venus has Gibson scale that you are used to.
Stock Venus pickups are no joke. I have all kinds of Seymour Duncan stuff laying around the workbench and never once got the urge to put one in.

Or if it's just the neck pickup that's bugging you put in a SD SJAG-1 jaguar pickup in and dont look back

BearBoy · Post by **BearBoy** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:32 am

robroe wrote:Venus has Gibson scale that you are used to.

The Venus is 25.5" isn't it, not 24.75"?

BearBoy · Post by **BearBoy** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:35 am

edsdds wrote:What is a Venus? I honestly cant find one. Made by who?

It was a Japanese made Squier from the late 1990s:

Post by **Doog** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:05 am

robroe wrote:
dots wrote: there is debate over the sweet spot for string gauges on shortscales,
Theres no debate. The correct answer is .13s

Yeah, or not.

I thought you said you liked science, Rob? And yet, you just looooove dogma, and probably the movie Dogma too.

BearBoy · Post by **BearBoy** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:03 pm

I used flatwound 12s on my shortscales for quite a while but have gradually gone lighter and have a mixture of flatwound and roundwound 10s on them atm.

edsdds · Post by **edsdds** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:09 pm

Yeah that is a pretty rare piece. But it is 25.5Ã¢â‚¬Â� from what I have found

Post by **dots** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:34 pm

i use 13s... on my acoustic! for which they are considered medium gauge. on an acoustic.

that said, i have seen rob's pickguards -- if that is any indication of the level of abuse his strings receive, i can imagine the heavier the better. since i try to articulate with bends and trills and the like, 11s just get that job done... and are durable enough for my far-from-light playing style.